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The Education Board>
Basics and "Higher" Education
TheMudge
The Real Mudge 2902 posts Aug 12, 2008
10:12 AM
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In an attempt to "rev up" this board, I present the following conundrum. As I've been preparing for my fall class in English Comp, I've decided to start at an even more basic level than I have in the past – with instruction about the parts of speech. I used to begin with sentence structure, but I now realize that most of my students lack the tools to grasp the concepts of structure because they aren't familiar with types of words and their functions. In English 101 (not a remedial course but the one writing skills course required for an Associate's degree), the department feels strongly that instructors should stress more advanced rhetorical principles, not grammar. Now, I've complained for decades about the "dumbing down" of the school system, so I'm starting to have doubts about using this approach. Am I not, in so doing, contributing to the "dumbing down" process? About one in ten, at best, can write coherent sentences without backtracking to such a basic level. Should I focus on them, letting the rest flounder (and probably drown) in water where they can't get their feet down? Even with my previous approach (beginning with sentence structure), about 60% dropped or failed because they were in over their heads. I could be hard-hearted and say, "Tough!" – but that isn't what I think a teacher should do. I believe in meeting students where I find them; however, if I revert to such basic instruction in a course that carries college credit, am I becoming part of the problem instead of part of the solution? ---------- Rich Turner (The Curmudgeon Himself)
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Pogo
547 posts Aug 16, 2008
1:10 PM
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If the student cannot learn or refuses to learn, he should not be advanced—but if the foundation for further learning is lacking because previous teachers did not lay it, current teachers should do what they can for the student. If such are in the minority, the students should be directed to sources of help; if they are in the majority, the teacher can fill in the holes, which will count as review for the fortunate few. What level of writing skill are the students to reach in your course? Will building the foundation leave enough time to cover the rest? Are there entry-level requirements for this course? Or prerequisite courses? Perhaps the administration can be convinced that such are necessary and establish beginning or remedial courses that would do this job.
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TheMudge
The Real Mudge 2908 posts Aug 16, 2008
8:28 PM
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What level of writing skill are the students to reach in your course? Will building the foundation leave enough time to cover the rest? There is no easy answer to either question. Some students in a community college are headed for transfer to a senior college, some are planning to go only as far as an associate's degree, and some are hoping to acquire a certificate in a specialized field such as law enforcement or information technology. All are lumped together in the required English 101 class. Very few will take any additional writing courses. Since I've already found many holders of bachelor's degrees who write as if they are unfamiliar with English, I don't know what the goal is anymore. Broadly speaking, it's to have them write clearly and correctly enough that they can be understood and don't appear to have dropped out of school around fifth grade. That is a notch above where they are when they enter my class. Exaggeration? I could back it up with hundreds of papers that would have you asking, "How did this person ever get a diploma?" My modest goal is make most of them look as if they had achieved eighth-grade writing skills and a few too look as if they really earned a diploma.Are there entry-level requirements for this course? Or prerequisite courses? Perhaps the administration can be convinced that such are necessary and establish beginning or remedial courses that would do this job. Yes, there are. Students take standardized English and reading tests and are placed in English 101 if their scores are sufficiently high. The reading test must be either flawed or very easy because I have had students who pass it but cannot read a newspaper article and understand it. The English test has no writing component, so it tells little except possibly that the student is pretty good at guessing the right answers on vocabulary questions. Those who do not score high enough on these tests (about a third of our admissions) are required to take noncredit English or reading courses (what I call remedial classes but that the college euphemistically dubs "foundations courses"). The content and level of these courses is probably around eighth-grade (at best), and all but the almost completely illiterate pass them, sometimes with A's or B's. They then go on to English 101. About half my students have had to take one or both of these courses, yet they are still incapable of constructing correct and coherent simple sentences. They still, for example, cannot locate the verb in a sentence. I can tell from their first essays in my class that they are unprepared for anything but the most basic instruction, which, of course, makes my course as "remedial" as the foundations courses are supposed to be. I have gone no further than the Dean of Liberal Arts with these problems. I asked him, "Why am I getting students who passed the foundations class but cannot write a sentence? Why am I getting students in English 101 who appear doomed to fail it?" His reply: "Many instructors in the foundations courses are so eager to have their students succeed that they pass them." "But they're setting them up for failure later on." "Yes, they are." End of discussion. Thus, the "prerequisite" courses are no more effective than the policy of promoting students from grade to grade throughout the primary and secondary school system, regardless of whether they advance in skills or knowledge. The system is broken, and I'll bet that every English 101 instructor in the college would admit privately (if he or she could be assured that no administrator ever heard of it) that only a small fraction of our students are remotely prepared for a course that could truly be dubbed college-level English composition. In closing, every semester for twenty years I have read the final compositions of hundreds of English 101 students across several sections. They were never very good and have gotten worse. Understand, too, that these represent the 60% or so who have made it through the semester (all sections start with 30 students; few have more than 20 at the end). If I were asked, after reading a student's paper, "Whould you hire this person if his or her job included writing interoffice memos?" my answer would be "No" for about two-thirds. Nevertheless, I will pass half of these two-thirds because I, too, am compromised by the broken system. ---------- Rich Turner (The Curmudgeon Himself)
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Pogo
564 posts Aug 21, 2008
9:22 AM
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Has that dean ever taught? Or is he an educrat?
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TheMudge
The Real Mudge 2924 posts Aug 21, 2008
10:39 AM
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As a matter of fact, the dean with whom I spoke is a former head of the English Department, in which capacity he taught several classes. Before that, he was a full-time professor and, I understand, an excellent one. I respect him immensely. He is also very much of a realist. His remark to me was intended to describe the way things are, not the way they ought to be. He personally would never pass a student who was doomed to failure at the next level, but (even as dean) he cannot dictate to "foundations" instructors which students they may or may not pass. Like me, only at a higher level, he has no choice but to compromise with the system. He would be the first to say to me, as he has on occasion, "If they don't meet minimum standards, fail them." Many administrators are, however, educrats. They emphasize (false) self-esteem, creating an environment in which students who do not meet minimum standards are allowed to get by. Therefore, standards become lower, as does the level of instruction. That leads back to my original questions: How far back into the fundamentals of a subject should an instructor go when a majority of students are unprepared for the usual level of instruction? Is "meeting students where we find them" a sensible approach, or does it just contribute to further "dumbing down"? ---------- Rich Turner (The Curmudgeon Himself)
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Dalton
9 posts Aug 25, 2008
12:45 PM
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Mudge, I understand your dilemma. I faced a very similar situation teaching English 101 classes in the undergraduate program of a four-year state university. While the majority of my students were honors graduates of their high schools, no more than one or two in a class wrote at what I consider the high school level, and perhaps two-thirds of the class wrote below the eighth grade level. The course was designed to teach the conventions of different genres, ending with a focus on argument; grammar was not a focus, although I covered some aspect of grammar in each class period. I focused on (very basic) sentence structure but did not go over the parts of speech. I tried to use authentic text (student assignments) and not to get too bogged down in teaching grammar terms. Since I left that teaching post, I've spent some time working with GED teachers, many of whom are worried about teaching material that is "too advanced" for their students. On reflection, I wish I had spent more time on teaching the grammar terminology with my college students. I think it would have helped my students to have a greater vocabulary with which to describe -- and fix -- their writing problems. (Of course, it would have been ideal if this vocabulary was given to students before they enter college, but that isn't the case for the majority of students.) Please share in December how you feel your "back to basics" approach has paid off over the semester.
Last Edited on 25-Aug-2008 12:46 PM
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Bradd
526 posts Aug 25, 2008
7:34 PM
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My post is not particularly helpful to the thread but to express shock at the statement that the majority of the students were honors graduates and two-thirds of these wrote below the eighth grade level. (Dalton) I'm not challenging the veracity of the statement, just very shocked by it. How does a student achieve honors without being able to write? I can believe the dismal state of affairs of education in general, but honors students?
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TheMudge
The Real Mudge 2933 posts Aug 25, 2008
8:13 PM
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Bradd: You may be shocked, but I don't doubt Dalton's statement. Your shock reflects the understandable view that the faulty system fails only those students who, for various reasons, are already weak. However, it follows logically that, if standards are low or nonexistent for "regular" students, what it takes to qualify for "honors" will be lower. You've heard it said that a rising tide lifts all boats. It is equally true that a lowering tide lowers all boats. Educators and their mouthpiece, the NEA, go to great lengths to conceal the failures of the system from the public. Consider this scenario: Your son, Johnny, is in a class of students, most of whom are learning little or nothing. Johnny, who has about average intelligence and ability, performs close to this level and does learn something. It's almost certain that he will find himself in an "honors" course, in which the material is a notch above the basic level (or at least there is more of it). You are proud, and you believe that the system is working. However, he may still emerge from high school with skills only slightly better than eighth-grade level. He will then show up in a college classrom (like Dalton's) unprepared for a "course . . . designed to teach the conventions of different genres, ending with a focus on argument." He may be able to comprehend the subject matter, but he will be unable to write about it because he still lacks skill in grammar and syntax. Dalton: Your comment that "I wish I had spent more time on teaching the grammar terminology with my college students" is reassuring, especially since you base this view on your time spent working with GED instructors. I will definitely report in December how the "back to basics" approach works. I may even post along the way (probably on The Mudgelog) how it seems to be going. ---------- Rich Turner (The Curmudgeon Himself)
Last Edited on 25-Aug-2008 8:14 PM
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CeeBee
2143 posts Aug 26, 2008
2:58 PM
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Mudge, I have a solution for you when teaching. Everyone in the class will not only pay strict attention, but will also learn quickly -- Wordgasm
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TheMudge
The Real Mudge 2940 posts Aug 27, 2008
1:05 PM
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CeeBee: Good grief! Why didn't I think of that? Students don't want to learn but to be entertained, and almost everyone agrees that sex is entertaining (to put it mildly). So let's hear it for strip syntax and nude diagramming. Let's do some real conjugating in the classroom. ---------- Rich Turner (The Curmudgeon Himself)
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Endi
369 posts Aug 28, 2008
8:02 AM
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A verb asked a noun out to dine And they both shared a bottle of wine The verb couldn't wait He said, "Let's conjugate," But sadly the noun did decline.
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OldBrenda
14 posts Aug 29, 2008
5:56 PM
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This thread has caused me to cough up several confessions. Some of the juvenile offenders whom I teach have no intention of returning to high school; they are determined to get GEDs. There are a couple of problems that I've had to work with: 1)We don't have a GED program set up for them, and 2) the sample tests I have collected are pretty difficult. So... First, I try to determine if they have the intelligence to use reasoning to answer questions. If they don't, I tell them it will probably be easier and faster to get their high school diploma. (I'm sorry to admit this.) Second, even though we don't have a GED program and I'm supposed to be teaching according to the curriculum, I forget everyone from Jonathan Edwards to Faulkner (our curriculum for sophomores and juniors) and give them practice tests in writing and reading. (I'm sorry for this one too.) Third, when they make errors that I can't find a way to explain without grammar, I think, "They can probably pass the test without getting this one correct." I forget the grammar because they're not with me very long, and it takes too long to start from scratch. (I'm really sorry about this one.)
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Endi
372 posts Aug 30, 2008
2:54 AM
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This is called "Teaching to the test." In my own field, teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) there are two levels (Step 1 and 2) that exist for students whose education has been so impoverished that they are unable to start at the supposed beginner level. Typically these students are unable to read and write in their own languages. There are now exams for these two levels. Ideally, I think there should be exams to focus the mind at a fairly high level at about B1 or B2 in the Common European Framework. Before this, as OldBrenda says, teaching to the exam necessitates an emphasis towards passing the exam rather than to the needs of the student. That is not to say we shouldn't test; tests indicate progress and provide the teacher and student with feedback; but the tests should not be official exams. Exam companies, of course, make their money by getting people to take as many exams as possible.
Last Edited on 30-Aug-2008 1:06 PM
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CeeBee
2152 posts Aug 30, 2008
12:58 PM
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Brenda, do you ever use diagramming as a visual aid?
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OldBrenda
16 posts Aug 30, 2008
4:17 PM
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I taught for six years in a private school and three years in a public school. I used diagramming every year. It's a great tool. I don't think I need to tell you why. I'm in a different situation now. Many of my students are with me for only a few weeks. Most have never heard of diagramming and will never hear of it again after they leave our program. We seldom know who will be staying long-term and who will not, so I operate as if they were all long-term. The students who DO stay at Juvenile Detention for a month or more are usually 16 or 17 years old. They have been in trouble several times and have bounced around from one school to another. Their chances of graduating from high school are not good because they are so far behind on their credits. Their skill levels are often very low. I try to determine on an individual basis what I can do that will actually help them, but this means I have to face reality.
If a student comes to me behind in credits, but still hoping to graduate, I try to help him (or her)get credits by following the curriculum. Many of these kids want to raise themselves up and live good lives outside the system, but it's a steep climb. Parents are inadequate or even non-existent, their homies are always waiting down the street, they have very little money, they struggle in school, and they don't know how to get where they want to be. I try to help their chances the only way I can--by helping them to earn the credits they will need. If a 17-year-old kid with a record a half-mile long comes to me with two high school credits but with a pretty good mind, I try to help him prepare for a GED program. That means helping him pass the test so that he (or she) can get a job that doesn't involve a gun or standing on a street corner. That means forgetting Emerson and Shakespeare and even parts of speech. If I get a kid with a good mind and the potential for college, I challenge him as much as I can, whether it be with GED practice tests or with his credits. And I get a little sick when he returns because he's gotten in trouble again. If I get a 17-year-old who has been in trouble since he was ten years old, has two credits, and is classified as MR (mentally retarded), I just go home and bawl. I have a student right now who wants to get in a GED program when he gets out. One of the other teachers asked me why I am working with him on the science portion of the GED. Because he's already shown me he can pass the Language Arts portion, that's why. I had another student who was definitely college material but insisted he just wanted to get his GED so he could work for his grandpa and eventually take over the business. So I gave him what little help he needed. He passed the GED after a week in a program and scored in the top 10% in the nation. I kept telling him he should be going to college, but I did what I felt I had to do. I still hope he makes it to college some day, though.
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