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Pronouncing the letter V

CeeBee
2123 posts
Aug 17, 2008
11:42 AM
I need input from someone who speaks Hindi and/or Urdu, someone from India.

I work with two charming Indian woman. Both say "wolunteer" instead of "volunteer." Yet, there is no pronunciation problem when saying "variable" or "Vishnu" or "very." There may be other words where the "v" is pronounced as a "w," but I haven't pursued that.

I found this on WikiHow: "...in Indian languages, the sound "V" doesn't exist, and so you probably don't hear it in English either." But then, both of my coworkers say India has two national languages, so they learned (British) English right along with Hindi.

Why is the "w" sound used instead of the the "v" sound in "volunteer" but not for other words that begin with "v"?

Last Edited on 17-Aug-2008 11:45 AM

Pogo
550 posts
Aug 18, 2008
8:52 AM
Perhaps because of the following sound?

After my small niece begged pennies from her uncle(-in-law), who was from Bombay, for the "sewing machine," she began calling the coin-operated gum-ball dispenser the "wing-ding machine." His pronunciation was "wending machine."

While India has only two official languages that all government communication must be in, it has over 1500 languages, with 350 of them major. My brother-in-law used to write to his father in Hindi, to his mother in Sindhi. In 1965, I sat in the Indian pavilion at the NY World's Fair for a while listening to five Indians conversing on the far side of the room. They used English. Then two of them went away; the three remaining continued in English. When one of those left, the other two switched to another language.

What gets me is when two sounds get reversed. Anchy and Maria, Cuban fifteen-year-olds who'd learned English by being immersed the year before (in boarding school in Indiana), said "biolo-yee" and "al-yuh-bra" but "Joo-goslavia." If they could pronounce both, why didn't they put them where they belonged?

Pogo
551 posts
Aug 18, 2008
9:02 AM
By the way, their alphabet has a letter for V. It's a labial sonorant, whatever that is. Devanagari alphabet
CeeBee
2125 posts
Aug 18, 2008
10:22 AM
Ah! Another "v" word--"vending." I'll ask coworker Manisha about that one. She had, in a test situation, pronounced "volunteer" with the "v" sound, but she said she really has to think about it and remember to do it. (That word comes up a lot at work because I'm in charge of the library volunteers, and Manisha is my supervisor.)

That's an interesting story about the switching-on-and-off-English-in-conversations, Pogo. The many Indians who come into our library speak English and Hindi, plus whatever dialect from their home region. I asked Manisha why she doesn't speak anything but English with them, and she responded with "Why? We all know English, and we live in the United States now." I've heard her speaking another language, though, when she is on her cell phone talking with friends or family. And she's in charge of selecting all the Hindi- and Urdu-language movies we buy, so then translates for me when I catalog them.

I remember my German grandparents who spoke German at home, a mix of German and English with friends and relatives, and as much English as they could when out in the world.

Last Edited on 18-Aug-2008 10:26 AM

Pogo
554 posts
Aug 19, 2008
8:20 AM
This morning I encountered a fellow bus-passenger who is from India. He can't explain it either—at least, not in words I could make out through his accent—but he has no trouble pronouncing V.
TheMudge
The Real Mudge
2919 posts
Aug 20, 2008
9:37 AM
I don't know the languages in question, but it seems to me that this might be just the reverse of what happens when Germans pronounce the English "w." Since Welt (world) and Wort (word) are pronounced "velt" and "vort" in German, speakers of German tend to pronounce the English "w" as "v," even though German uses the letter "v" (usually pronounced with a softer sound than the English "v" – like a mixture of "v" and "f").

It really hurts, by the way, when I hear English speakers refer to Richard WAG-ner instead of Richard VOG-ner.
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Rich Turner (The Curmudgeon Himself)

Pogo
562 posts
Aug 21, 2008
8:57 AM
Another thought: remember Chekov in the original Star Trek? Walter Koenig copied his parents' Russian accent for the role and did horrible things to V and W both. Russian does have the V sound (although at the end of words like "Chekov" the letter is unvoiced, like F). But it is used in names like Pavel and Vladimir.
Endi
362 posts
Aug 24, 2008
5:23 AM
I go through a procedure for pronunciation. The /v/ sound is simply the voiced counter-part of /f/. If a learner can make the /f/ sound and a voiced sound they should be able to make the /v/ sound. Ask them to make the /f/ sound then ask them to make a continued /sss/ sound. Then a continued /zzz/ sound. Then ask them to put their finger on their Adam's apple and do the same. They will feel vibration with /zzz/. Explain verbally and gesture this vibration with a vibrating hand movement. To reinforce do the same with a /sh/ and /zh / sound. Then have them say the /f/ again then say do it again with vibration in your Adam's apple. If a student didn't have the /f/ sound either, you would have to explain that you have to put your lower lip against your teeth. Most languages have either the /f/ and /v/ sounds the exceptions being according to the journal of the International Phonetic Association, though I forget which issue, mainly languages spoken by cultures that have until recently practised or continue to practise ritual teeth extraction or fitting of lip-plates, which makes production of these sounds impossible anyway.

The /th/ sounds are usually harder as they are actually quite rare. With these sounds you have to run your finger across your top teeth and say put your tongue there. Once a student gets a sound, it's a case of practise, practise, practise.

Last Edited on 24-Aug-2008 5:28 AM

CeeBee
2141 posts
Aug 24, 2008
1:46 PM
I may have found the answer to my own question. I was Googling and learned that Indian church schools are more exacting about English pronunciation than are state-run schools. I'm not sure which type Manisha attended.

Also, native-languages.org says, "Sometimes, especially before an a, v is pronounced like w in way instead."

The word "volunteer" that Manisha pronounces with an initial w does sound like "vah-lun-teer," with the v before an a. I'll have to test her on some va- words.

Good thing Manisha is a patient person.

Last Edited on 24-Aug-2008 1:49 PM

Pogo
567 posts
Aug 25, 2008
2:12 PM
The letter A or one of the sounds of A? "Volunteer" has the broad A/short O sound. The example you were given looks like it is citing the long A sound (the E sound in many other languages). The words she can pronounce the V in use that sound.